DISQUS

Maire · 1 year ago

You forgot to go to the library. We don't have the greatest selection in the world, but we're cheap!

Britt G. · 1 year ago

Great article!! Thanks for showing that people can enjoy anime without stealing it. People always think I'm crazy because I have never once downloaded a fansub. I refuse to. Sure, I don't get to see all the latest stuff fresh out of Japan, but like you said, old stuff can be new if you've never seen it before. I just go to Blockbuster and rent something there. Another angle you might want to try for "living legit" is the public library. The one here in Orlando,FL has all sorts of anime and manga available for checkout for free (as long as you have no fines). The question is, is there a difference between getting it from the library for free and getting it online for free? Nice work! :]

AnonymousofMassachusetts · 1 year ago

I've been going an entire fansubs now too...though to be honest it's kind of easy for me since all I'm watching is Strike Witches, Avatar, and various online free fanworks for Touhou, moe <stuff>-tans, and so on.

Oh, btw, BOST's releases of Strike Witches aren't region-locked at all.

Nice post, Scott...I actually find this to be one of the most insightful anime blogs there is due to the once-a-week article format...you should consider doing a piece on moe fans outside Japan.

Scott · 1 year ago

Actually, my first ever "thinking outside the box" post I did was right when the moé trend was just beginning and I was trying to figure out why it wasn't about pedophilia:

http://thescott18.blogsome.com/2005/04/26/the-d...

I've written about this "longing for fatherhood" theory several times since then, but I might revisit it some day.

vincea · 1 year ago

Congrats on the results of your experiment.. It's trite to say it but "I you haven't seen it... it's new to you". Who cares if it's not really 'new'. If you enjoyed it... you enjoyed it. Isn't that the point of entertainment?

NIGHTJ · 1 year ago

Nice argument, since those goodies you've rightfully pointed out should be used far more often by your fellow Americans.

But most of them, with a couple of notable exceptions I do in fact use (BOST/CR and Youtube, when and if region locks are not in place), aren't available to those of us in the unluckier parts of the world.

Not that you really expected someone like me to reply, I suppose, but there it goes.

Haesslich · 1 year ago

Let me note one thing: Bandai Visual just released the whole season of Haruhi Suzimiya for $45. In contrast, their Special Edition releases for one volume (one DVD) were $40.

... I'm a little pissed off right now, but pleased that they're starting to price the whole-series editions (the equivalent of a season here) at a price point competitive with me going out to buy Season 10 of Stargate: SG-1 or Season 4 of Stargate: Atlantis. You've also forgotten about BOST and CrunchyRoll - Gonzo's only real improvement to the experience, IMO, was putting shows on YouTube and CrunchyRoll.... although they've backed into BOST, whic pisses me off somewhat since it's somewhat less friendly than YouTube to buy and view videos, much less iTunes.

As for the fansub thing... I do buy the DVD's. Bandai Visual and Pioneer/Geneon/now-Funimation know all too well. Fansubs are not the be-all and end-all of evil as far as 'anime pirates' go (that distinction belongs to the bootleggers in Hong Kong, Taiwan, and China who don't license the shows and sell them at Chinatowns and street markets all over Asia and North America), and they do tend to make anime known to a lot of people... but again, the industry could co-opt them the way Gonzo was well on its way to, and that Funimation's starting to experiment with, by releasing the shows (or parts of them) for free to allow the sampling that North American audiences don't tend to get even with cable.

Yes, I know you're going to say that all these shows are available on Adult Swim or the Anime Network. I will have to ask you to catalogue them, compare them to the list of anime shows available on Amazon, and then try to see what the percentage is. I'll bet you it'll be under 40% of that is seen... and a lot of it shows up once, then is never heard from again unless it's butchered and reworked like 4Kids does it, or as Nelvana used to with Card Captor Sakura or Sailor Moon.

Estara · 1 year ago

I have to chime in here, too, on Häßlich's post - I'm another person who (being an adult with full-time job and according salary) does buy the DVDs after she has watched the fansubs - basically to support good product and get more of that. With not-so-popular series I don't even wait for the box, there might not be one (may I just say I am SO happy that Saiunkoku Monogatari will be continued - but at least I have the first two DVDs in any case. I still have hopes for SlamDunk, too).
I own quite a few completely fansubbed series, and I no longer have to sell DVDs on ebay just because I found out I didn't like where the story goes after all - I do have a habit of buying around € 150 worth of anime and manga a month, so I may not be typical though. It means I can't afford splurging on anime which turns out not to be to my taste.
Apart from that the selection of anime here in Germany isn't as good as in the US in the first place, but we're working on it. The manga situation is much better, though.
Another thing that some fansubbers do and which I wouldn't want to miss is bring very old anime which wouldn't make sense to release commercially to non-Japanese viewers - my favourite examples are Touch, Cosmic Baton-Girl Comet-san and Legend of the Galactic Heroes. Or even strange but interesting Japanese TV shows like Phytagoras Switch.

I do think that the recent trend of trying to get DVD or HD quality in fansubs really hurts business, I can't see why the old Xvid or Divx quality isn't enough of a sample of taste before you buy.

These lists are from 2004, by the way:

"Series I bought because I was able to see them fansubbed first:

Kare Kano
Gravitation
Pretear
Fruits Basket
Princess Tutu (2nd Volume is delayed *grr*)
Full Metal Panic
Samurai Deeper Kyo
Sakura Taisen - The Movie
Here is Greenwood
Slam Dunk
Someday’s Dreamers
Saiyuki (first 52 episodes)
Vandread - both seasons
Twelve Kingdoms
Onegai Teacher
To Heart
Mahoromatic
Pretear
Kyo Kara Maou
Angelic Layer
Gatekeepers (although I have sold the last two after I watched them)

Because of Scanlations of the Manga:

Gals
Here is Greenwood
Yamato Nadeshiko Shichihenge/The Wallflower
HanaKimi
FruitsBasket
Kaikan Phrase
Akuma na Eros/ Virgin Crisis
Love Mode
Kizuna
Only the Ringfinger Knows
Kare First Love
Chrno Crusade
Land of the Blindfolded
Pretear
From Far Away
Juvenile Orion"

Scott · 1 year ago

Because I only know of the situation in America, I cannot argue on available of titles and rental services in the other parts of the world. And maybe Germans are actually truthful in fulfilling that obligation to buy the DVD after watching a fansub, I don't know.

All I can testify to is the American otaku community, and I will gladly go on record to say that the vast majority of American fansub watchers do not buy the DVDs. I cannot - and will not - say the same about Germans or any other culture.

Estara · 1 year ago

I didn't want to generalise for Germany, really, but my main point would be more that old anime which never will be licensed would not reach other cultures AND I personally would buy less anime if I couldn't be sure that I would like it.
As I said, I may not be typical ^^.

Haesslich · 1 year ago

Also, to note - Sony's going in the wrong direction with Xam'd - their region locking it from Europe... well, I don't see how this is going to sell the show, especially as there are no plans that I know of to release it on TV later this fall or on DVD/Blu-Ray ATM.

bluemist · 1 year ago

I call burnout. Sometimes one realizes that being first doesn't matter, whether it be watching the latest episode the minute it comes out or blogging about it the second you finish it. Personally, I can wait until the season is done before I even start some shows. Of course a few would still have the weekly watching treatment for me if I like it so much.

I won't agree that "most blogs" still do the BREAKING NEWS thing, in hindsight (with my narrow vision of Nano, other rss'd blogs of mine, and my lol oldness in participating in the community) I would say that more anibloggers are being more creative than just blow-by-blow episode commentary nowadays.

And really, if we had the American systems of Netflix, iTunes, and Hulu/BOST/YouTube fully available in this part of the world, I'd be compelled to convert too. Anime licensing turnabout is not as slow as years ago, and selection is still vast. If American anime economy is having a problem with slow DVD sales and strong fansub market, why no counter with those new media systems? I think that similarly with mainstream media, this is a time of transitions. I hope your industry survives it.

YP · 1 year ago

Good for you. I hope the trend of honor among the anonymous Internet will finally get started. It's disgusting that theft has become so commonplace that it doesn't even occur to people to be ashamed of it. In fact, most of the time you have to keep your mouth shut about how much this practice disgusts you or you stand to be boycotted. I despise those idiots who bring pen and paper with them to write down the names of anime they want to pirate when they visit the Media Blasters booth at conventions. They do it right in front of the Media Blasters people who put food on their tables through those DVD sales. How can it not occur to these pirating thieves how big a slap in the face that is to those employees? No common decency anymore. I would love to see an Internet Honor badge start going around for people who pledge not to be Internet criminals any longer.

scottfrye · 1 year ago

I must be one of the few people that actually bought DVDs after discovering fansubs.

Netflix is more friendly for us who like their anime subtitled. I have tried iTunes for anime and just didnt like the restriction to just dubs. What I love about DVDs is that they have the option to switch between the dubs, the subs or pure Japanese. They can appeal to those who like both or don't like either. I like options.

Patz · 1 year ago

I am with you man. But I am still fighting with myself on quitting my fansub watching habits. But I actually do buy a ton of DVDs anyway. Right Stuf's sales are pure evil making me buy more and more dvds every freaking week. Oh and btw you have a bad typo in your post modal is written where it should be model twice lol.

Scott · 1 year ago

Oops! Thanks for spotting that! All fixed.

lwelyk · 1 year ago

Yeah, I'm not a fan of fansubs. I've watched a few things fansubbed, but I guess I'm one of the rare people who buys them after seeing them. I bought Lain because I watched the fansubs. Same for Haruhi, Lucky Star, and Azumanga. The only one I haven't is Kino's Journey, and I am looking around for a good deal on the complete series of that. So yeah, but I'm not a huge fan of anime, I prefer manga. I would be fine, and happier if all fansubs just disappeared though. I wish more companies would do what FUNimation does and put up one or two episodes for free to watch to try it out. Of course this backfired with the Fruits Basket anime on me. I like the manga, but man I hated what I saw of the anime. Mostly because the annoying stuff got even more annoying when I couldn't skim past it. I.E. The Yuki Fangirls...

Basically, I really wish other companies would follow FUNimation's example, it's something that needs to be more common.

TheBigN · 1 year ago

It's good that you're doing what works for you, though you are generalizing quite a bit about fansub watching habits and rationales for doing so. As someone who watches fansubs and buys DVDs and as someone who can write about things other than fansubs (to generalize myself a little bit :P), the brush painting is a little worrisome. :/

Scott · 1 year ago

Generalizing is the way I cut through the b.s. and just get to the point. It makes the biggest impact on the reader and gets them really thinking about themselves and their place in the community. Even if they think I'm wrong, they have to really think about why I am wrong and to what degree.

Sure, there are always exceptions to the rule, but I'll stand by my statement that the vast majority of fansub watchers do not end up buying DVDs. This comes from my own personal experience with myself and all the anime fans I know in real life. I trust that physical evidence a lot more than anecdotal evidence I get from the internet.

Melinda Beasi · 1 year ago

This is a really interesting article, and though I have a lot of mixed feelings over it, and some Opinions (with a capital "O" heh) which I've expressed recently in my own blog, I'd actually love a method of going completely off fansubs, if it would allow me to keep up on stories that I'm genuinely invested in (that's my issue with the "fresh from Japan" bit, I'm a fiction addict and those are the stories I care about right now, so I'm not too keen to let them go). But really that's not the point of my comment here. Mostly I just wanted to ask you a question:

I have assumed that because the shows on adult swim are, to my knowledge, aired dubbed, that they are only available online dubbed as well. Is that true?

Scott · 1 year ago

I understand the problem with "letting go" of shows, but to me, having to watch a show I really liked just didn't justify the act of stealing it. I felt that this was demonstrating my own selfishness. I wanted something so badly that I didn't care that the people who created it wanted to be compensated for their work. I was ashamed of myself for thinking this, so I gave up everything I was watching and moved on to other shows.

It was a sacrifice, but honestly, it wasn't that hard of a sacrifice to make. Anime is anime, after all. It's just entertainment. You can actually live without it as a consumer, but for the artists and staff, it is their livelihood.

A majority of the legal stuff online is dubbed, but I did see a few shows like Bacconno and Strike Witches in subtitle.

Everything on Netflix, on the other hand, was either a dub-and-sub DVD ("School Rumble") or subtitle-only DVD ("Emma"). So unless you're trying to get something like Hamtaro or Yu Gi Oh, you'll always have a subtitle option.

Melinda Beasi · 1 year ago

Well, I don't necessarily try to justify illegal downloading, but I do think it isn't going to stop anytime soon, and that instead of spending time complaining about their customers, those who produce anime here in the West should be figuring out how to provide their customers with what they obviously want: timely, affordable releases of subbed anime. I admit that for me, dubs are a dealbreaker. I have liked almost none of them. But really, that makes me an easier customer to please, because what I'm asking for does not require the time and expense involved in dubbing. I would very much like to be given the opportunity to download current, legal, subbed anime for a reasonable price.

Robin Brenner · 1 year ago

Saw the link to this article over on Mangablog -- great experiment and article. I am a librarian, and I'm curious, did you ever consider getting anime through your local library? It's free, after all, and much like Netflix, you can plow through entire series.

I realize not all libraries have extensive anime collections akin to Netflix, but if librarians have evidence the need is there (i.e. patrons request anime be purchased), then libraries will start building one up.

CalAggie · 1 year ago

I have not been enthusiastic about the last three seasons of newly premiering anime but there are shows that I watch later than the herd and still enjoy, e.g. Bamboo Blade or Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei. Of course there are older titles that I want to see that are available through legal channels and in some cases, I have bought older series like DNA^2 on the cheap so I can watch them in stretches on my own time. Sometimes holes appear like a disc in an out-of-print series has a very long wait on Netflix (Princess Nine) or simply aren't available at all (Gunsmith Cats) but most of what I would want to see are there.

It may be honorable to live an legal viewing lifestyle but there are series that I would not have experienced if I had stuck to such a code of viewer conduct. The comedic gender struggles in Tenshi na Konamaiki and the domestic drama in Aishiteruze Baby became known to me through the local anime club and I found Zettai Shonen through an episodic blog. Although most of the series I have watched through fansubs eventually were brought to the States, I cannot simply dismiss watching any unlicensed material especially if it has been three years and series X has not been picked up. It is impossible to say anything will be absolutely never be brought to the US, thanks to Nozomi and Media Blasters, so I have stopped using that excuse. But I can still say we live in a global economy and one must be aware of trends and the content being released overseas in order to be truly informed about the bigger picture.

Guest · 1 year ago

I also started out without ever having to download a fansub BUT it was a fansub that a friend showed me that got me interested in anime in the first place. It also got them an embarrassing amount of money before I realized how much it was consuming my life and gave it up for a while.

Anyway, I sometimes wonder if downloading is really a major part of the equation anymore. Recently, I talked to some US kids (and I cringe when I write this cause I'm not that old!) and they mentioned watching anime, licensed and unlicensed, via a streaming site that was supported by user donations. This was accompanied by a "What, are you in the stone age?" look as well. I would be interested in reading your take on these types of sites as well.

Scott · 1 year ago

If a website is attempting to profit off of works of others without paying royalties, then they are even worse than fansubbers who give it away for free.

These kids might be talking about Crunchyroll, which was a Youtube knock-off that specialized in pirating both licensed and unlicensed anime shows. The crazy thing about Crunchyroll is that they had created such a huge community of illegal viewers, and then they took that "number of page views" statistic to some venture capital investors and got a lot of money to continue and grow the website.

Those guys got filthy rich because of pirating, and they took that investor money to Gonzo in Japan and ADV in America, two companies on the verge of bankruptcy, and convinced them to allow the site to "legally" stream their videos. They now go around talking about how "revolutionary" they are and how they are getting the support of major anime studios. But all they are doing is exploiting the weak. You will never see profitable companies like Bandai or FUNimation on Crunchyroll because they can afford to say no to their dirty money.

Unless a website is 100% legitimate, like BOST TV is, then they are disgusting pirates only profiting off of the works of others.

Sorry for ranting, but it just pisses me off to even think about them. (-_-)

Avery · 1 year ago

Tsukuyomi was four years ago? Damn, son, you're making me feel old. That's the most recent show I subbed.

reversethieves · 1 year ago

This experiment was pretty informative, you don't have to be rich to be a good fan. Since I started watching anime before the digi-sub era I haven't become overly attached I don't think (though if I don't get to watch Gundam 00 season 2 right when it starts their may be heads rolling). You'll never run out of things to watch even if you stopped watching fan-subs.

Though I will say that you left out the many shows that will probably never be licensed that one can only get on fan-sub especially a lot of older shows that really aren't viable anymore.

reversethieves · 1 year ago

An interesting experiment indeed! Though I started watching anime before the digi-sub era so I don't feel I am overly attached to it, I certainly pay for quite a bit of anime.

Though I think you did over look the need when shows will probably never be licensed. Especially older shows that aren't viable to the current market.

gerjomarty · 1 year ago

It's a really bad habit that anime fans have gotten themselves into with fansubs, and I'm glad that there is a cheap way of getting around it. Obviously, it's easier for you in the US to spend less on legal anime, but (and I'm sure this has been raised already) it's much harder for people in other parts of the world. This, however, is no excuse. It's illegal whatever country you're in, and if it costs more, then that's just tough luck I suppose.

Unfortunately, there isn't really any clear answer in the war on fansubs. Fans who don't give a damn about the industry will keep on downloading fansubs as long as they are available. Companies can offer free streaming to combat fansubs all they like, but what sort of money is it making them?

Very good article, great experiment by the way.

Evan "Vampt Vo" Minto · 1 year ago

Incredible post there Scott. I have personally sort of dropped out of the fansubbing scene recently, and this article is a good a motivation as any to stay out of it. While Gundam 00 will tempt me in the coming months, I think I might give up on fansubs for good.

If we can get a large group of fans to not only "live legit," but be vocal about it as well, we just might be able to make a dent in the lock that fansubs have on the industry.